SPEAKER_1: Welcome to StarTalk, your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide.
SPEAKER_1: StarTalk begins right now.
SPEAKER_1: We're featuring my interview with Norman Lear.
SPEAKER_1: Norman Lear, the legendary TV writer and producer, perhaps best known for creating All in the Family back in the 1970s.
SPEAKER_1: So I've got as my comedic co-host, Chuck Nice.
SPEAKER_1: Chuck, always good to have you here on StarTalk.
SPEAKER_1: Tweeting at Chuck Nice Comet.
SPEAKER_2: At Chuck Nice Comet.
SPEAKER_1: How you doing, man?
SPEAKER_2: How are you, buddy?
SPEAKER_2: All right.
SPEAKER_1: You feeling sitcom-y?
SPEAKER_2: You know, I kind of always feel sitcom-y.
SPEAKER_2: You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_2: I wake up and there's a laugh track to my life.
SPEAKER_2: Some people have a soundtrack to their life.
SPEAKER_2: I have a laugh track to my life.
SPEAKER_1: So you turn it up if nobody's laughing.
SPEAKER_2: Right.
SPEAKER_1: So any discussion of sitcoms in America?
SPEAKER_1: I need somebody who's an expert on it.
SPEAKER_1: I didn't even know such a person existed in this land.
SPEAKER_2: Well, it ain't me.
SPEAKER_1: It ain't you, but he's sitting right to your left.
SPEAKER_1: And it is Saul Austerlitz.
SPEAKER_1: Saul, welcome to StarTalk.
SPEAKER_1: So you wrote a book called Sitcom, a history in 24 episodes from Isle of Lucy to Community.
SPEAKER_3: That's right.
SPEAKER_1: And these are like your favorite shows throughout?
SPEAKER_3: Yeah, it's a mixture of some of my favorite shows and some shows like Gilligan's Island.
SPEAKER_3: I've watched more episodes of Gilligan's Island than anyone else should ever have to.
SPEAKER_3: I'm definitely an expert now.
SPEAKER_1: Is this something you boast about?
SPEAKER_1: This gets you dates at the bar, right?
SPEAKER_3: A combination of pride and shame, I guess.
SPEAKER_1: That's the best kind, actually.
SPEAKER_2: Was Gilligan's Island good, or did it just have to be in the book?
SPEAKER_2: Like, from your professional opinion?
SPEAKER_3: It's really bad.
SPEAKER_2: It's really bad.
SPEAKER_1: But we all know the theme song, so something was good enough about it to just work its way into our soul.
SPEAKER_3: And it's kind of representative of a particularly bad era in television.
SPEAKER_1: We'll get back to you on how bad all of our childhood was.
SPEAKER_2: Not to mention, it actually killed the three-hour tour industry as well.
SPEAKER_2: Just leveled it.
SPEAKER_1: So, who's the king of the sitcom?
SPEAKER_2: Hmm.
SPEAKER_3: Gotta be Norman Lear.
SPEAKER_1: It's gotta be Norman Lear.
SPEAKER_2: That makes sense.
SPEAKER_1: Who invented an entire genre from which we never looked back.
SPEAKER_1: And he wasn't just a regular old TV producer.
SPEAKER_1: He produced shows that made you think in ways no one made you think before, putting real issues in topics.
SPEAKER_1: He came by my office at the Hayden Planetarium and I snared an interview with him.
SPEAKER_1: Norman Lear, all 92 years of him.
SPEAKER_1: Check it out.
SPEAKER_1: Sir.
SPEAKER_4: Sir.
SPEAKER_1: Thanks for coming.
SPEAKER_4: I'm happy to be here.
SPEAKER_1: Well, thanks.
SPEAKER_1: And you are, I cannot believe you are 92.
SPEAKER_1: That means you've seen everything.
SPEAKER_1: So you were born before quantum physics was discovered.
SPEAKER_4: I was.
SPEAKER_1: Yes.
SPEAKER_1: Everyone told you that?
SPEAKER_1: Here's the stuff you were born before.
SPEAKER_4: I was born in the refrigerator before the airplanes.
SPEAKER_1: Not before the airplane.
SPEAKER_1: I know my history well enough for that.
SPEAKER_4: No, but before there were planes in the sky, because when...
SPEAKER_1: Before there were jets, before was a common way to get around.
SPEAKER_1: So you were born before Lindbergh crossed the Atlantic, before quantum physics was discovered, before the expanding universe was discovered, before Hubble, the man...
SPEAKER_1: The man, yes.
SPEAKER_1: Not the top.
SPEAKER_1: The man discovered that there's more than one galaxy in the universe.
SPEAKER_1: You know, we live in the Milky Way, and you look out, and there were these fuzzy things, and people thought they were just fuzzy things, and Hubble showed that these are actual other galaxies, island universes unto themselves.
SPEAKER_1: You're born before all of this.
SPEAKER_1: So what is that?
SPEAKER_1: You've seen everything.
SPEAKER_1: What is it?
SPEAKER_4: But no, so little.
SPEAKER_1: At some point.
SPEAKER_1: So we'd like to believe that folks who have seen everything carry some wisdom and some insight.
SPEAKER_4: Here's the truth of it.
SPEAKER_1: What's that?
SPEAKER_4: At 88 and 89.
SPEAKER_1: Way back when you were younger.
SPEAKER_4: When I was younger, yeah.
SPEAKER_4: That didn't occur that much.
SPEAKER_4: It's when one turns 90, suddenly one is supposed to have a great deal of wisdom.
SPEAKER_4: We don't change.
SPEAKER_4: Everybody else changes.
SPEAKER_4: I now get applause standing up.
SPEAKER_4: And everybody assumes I'm wise.
SPEAKER_4: Nobody assumed I was wise at 88, 89, I swear.
SPEAKER_4: 90 is the secret number.
SPEAKER_1: Norman Lear's got a biography out, an autobiography called Even This I Get to Experience.
SPEAKER_1: And they came out last October.
SPEAKER_1: So it was great just getting them in my office.
SPEAKER_1: I got more clips to come.
SPEAKER_2: I just love the fact that one, Norman Lear drops by your office.
SPEAKER_2: Like how cool is that?
SPEAKER_2: And two, that you are probably the only person to ever interview him who starts your interview with, damn, you are old.
SPEAKER_2: He took it well.
SPEAKER_2: Why are you not dead?
SPEAKER_1: So what's interesting for me is he pioneered content on sitcoms and putting in material that previous sitcoms wouldn't come near.
SPEAKER_1: And I will get back more on that a little later.
SPEAKER_1: But when I think of content that people might have been afraid to put in today, I look at shows like The Big Bang Theory.
SPEAKER_1: It's all science in there, front to back, up and down the middle.
SPEAKER_1: It is the geekosphere, the geek culture manifest through the lives of scientists, Ph.D.
SPEAKER_1: scientists, and that was surely a taboo, if not scary, topic for writers in the day.
SPEAKER_1: And what do you, how do you feel about, what does that mean for producers to say, I want to do something no one has done before?
SPEAKER_1: That takes some gonads, right, to pull that off.
SPEAKER_3: Definitely, although at the same time, The Big Bang Theory is a very traditional kind of sitcom with a laugh track and it feels very conventional in a way, but the scientific aspect is definitely something a bit different.
SPEAKER_2: There are a lot of science jokes in that sitcom.
SPEAKER_2: You know, I've watched it a couple of times and I have to say that they're not shy about broaching the subject of science in where they make jokes that it's real science that they're making a joke about.
SPEAKER_1: So you guys, each of you, let's go back to the 70s when Norman Lear made his mark.
SPEAKER_1: How old were you, Chuck?
SPEAKER_1: Were you born yet?
SPEAKER_2: No, I was groovy.
SPEAKER_2: That's my age back in the 70s.
SPEAKER_1: How big was your fro?
SPEAKER_1: That's how we measure it.
SPEAKER_2: Yeah, I was born in the 70s.
SPEAKER_1: You were born in the 70s, okay.
SPEAKER_1: And were you a participant in the 70s?
SPEAKER_3: I was born in the late 70s.
SPEAKER_1: In the late 70s.
SPEAKER_1: So most of what you wrote about is from history books.
SPEAKER_3: Yeah, I caught up with it in reruns and TV land.
SPEAKER_1: The reruns.
SPEAKER_1: Okay, so you didn't get to feel it in the moment.
SPEAKER_2: Listen, I'm feeling you right now.
SPEAKER_1: And so, can you comment on shows that are rich in social commentary and the risk that the producer takes in that?
SPEAKER_1: Is there...
SPEAKER_3: Well, I think it's interesting.
SPEAKER_3: Norman Lear really pioneered in that sphere.
SPEAKER_3: You know, the shows from the 1960s in particular were very bland, very domestic, and Norman Lear really blew that up.
SPEAKER_3: A show like All in the Family premiered, and it did all of the things that TV was not supposed to do, to be topical, to be adventurous, to be daring.
SPEAKER_1: And not supposed to do means no one thinks you can make money doing it.
SPEAKER_1: It's all about money, right?
SPEAKER_3: Right, and being scared of really engaging with the issues of the era.
SPEAKER_3: So shows like All in the Family and MASH and the Mary Tyler Moore Show, all of which premier pretty much in the same two-year period, are suddenly tackling Vietnam and civil rights and feminism in a way that had never really happened before.
SPEAKER_1: So somebody had to say this is a topic deserving of even a sitcom, not just a documentary.
SPEAKER_3: Exactly.
SPEAKER_1: And so we can wonder what could motivate someone to do this, right?
SPEAKER_1: That's...
SPEAKER_2: Absolutely.
SPEAKER_2: Because it doesn't make sense if you think about it.
SPEAKER_1: It doesn't make any sense at all, given the other shows on at the time or that created the legacy of sitcoms like I Love Lucy or some of my favorites of the day were like Green Acres and other crazy shows that have nothing to do with any social conditions at all.
SPEAKER_3: And deliberately avoid any social conditions.
SPEAKER_1: Yeah, in fact deliberately avoid.
SPEAKER_2: Like most of the shows today.
SPEAKER_1: So given how audacious such a step is, it makes you wonder what could have possibly motivated him to break the mold.
SPEAKER_1: Let's find out back in my office.
SPEAKER_4: What was motivating me?
SPEAKER_4: Just life.
SPEAKER_4: What we and our families were living.
SPEAKER_4: We talked about what was happening with our kids, what was impacting them in the greater culture.
SPEAKER_1: You have to think that somebody wants to watch that.
SPEAKER_1: And before your programs, TV then and often now was an escape for people.
SPEAKER_1: So they didn't have to think hard thoughts, right?
SPEAKER_1: Audacity is saying this is real and I'm going to show it back to you.
SPEAKER_4: You know, my father went to prison when I was nine years old.
SPEAKER_4: People are buying the furniture in the house.
SPEAKER_4: My father is in prison.
SPEAKER_4: And some strange fool puts his hand on my shoulder and says, you're the man of the house now.
SPEAKER_4: Now that's sad as could be and funny as hell.
SPEAKER_4: I'm the man, 12 years old.
SPEAKER_1: And this is during the Depression.
SPEAKER_1: If I do my math right.
SPEAKER_1: You're born in 1922, you're nine years old, it's 1931.
SPEAKER_4: Yeah, height of the Depression.
SPEAKER_1: 12 years old, yeah 1933.
SPEAKER_4: So I think I must have started at that point to see the humor in the human condition because there's a lot of that.
SPEAKER_1: Now I always wondered what must have gone through Norman Lear's mind to turn sticky social issues into things that are just hilarious making everyone laugh.
SPEAKER_1: We'll find out when we come back.
SPEAKER_1: We're back on StarTalk from the Hall of the Universe.
SPEAKER_1: We're featuring my interview with Norman Lear, the incredible TV producer, 92-year-old Norman Lear, who lived through the Depression, who saw World War II, he was active in World War II as a soldier, and makes you wonder how does this influence someone's life, someone's plight, someone's sense of humor even.
SPEAKER_1: So I was just wondering what mental process empowered him to make people laugh over things that might otherwise sound like tragic topics.
SPEAKER_1: Let's find out.
SPEAKER_1: How did you make people laugh?
SPEAKER_1: Because that's a secret recipe.
SPEAKER_1: I don't know what that is.
SPEAKER_1: How did you do that?
SPEAKER_4: That few people can do something doesn't make it a secret.
SPEAKER_4: Edith trying to tell her neighbor.
SPEAKER_1: Edith Bunker on All in the Family.
SPEAKER_4: Edith Bunker on All in the Family trying to tell her neighbor that she may have breast cancer.
SPEAKER_4: That she, Edith, may have breast cancer.
SPEAKER_4: Now, it's a very serious moment.
SPEAKER_4: But we know Edith and we know she can't say the words.
SPEAKER_4: Not because she has the problem, but because breast is a word people don't say in polite company in Edith's mind.
SPEAKER_1: Certainly not in the 1970s.
SPEAKER_4: Certainly not, well, she'd be the same Edith today if you were writing her, but certainly not in the 1970s.
SPEAKER_4: And the other woman who we know and the audience is going to find out has had breast cancer and has been through it and has no problem.
SPEAKER_4: There's no hilarity to be had there, but there is amusement and laughs.
SPEAKER_4: And so, and those laughs are heartier and warmer because the audience is caring a great deal about the outcome.
SPEAKER_1: Yeah, I hadn't thought to think about it that way.
SPEAKER_1: If you're invested in, if you care, then it's a different kind of laugh than if it's just hilarity, right?
SPEAKER_1: That's a brilliant distinction there.
SPEAKER_4: And we went for those kinds of laughs.
SPEAKER_4: The audience were involved in a serious problem with these people, and when they were called on to laugh out of the other guy's frustration and fear, fear, it made the humor more tender and as a result funnier.
SPEAKER_1: What a guy, man.
SPEAKER_1: Yeah, Saul, is there a difference between funny then and funny today?
SPEAKER_3: I think that the kind of topicality that Lear practiced is not as much in evidence today.
SPEAKER_3: It's really fallen away.
SPEAKER_3: It's been replaced by a different kind of comedy, which I think is equally sophisticated, but is more self-referential, more comedy about comedy, and less invested in the kinds of tangled and thorny social issues.
SPEAKER_1: What's a comedy about comedy?
SPEAKER_1: What do you mean?
SPEAKER_3: Something like Community or 30 Rock, shows that are very much about the process of making comedy that are about sitcoms about sitcoms.
SPEAKER_2: A mise en scene type of vibe.
SPEAKER_2: Mise en scene?
SPEAKER_2: That's something I ordered at a French restaurant once and I don't know.
SPEAKER_2: But yes, like the scene within the scene, that's what we're looking at now.
SPEAKER_3: Exactly.
SPEAKER_2: Because we're already in on the joke.
SPEAKER_1: But Chuck, how do you make difficult stuff funny?
SPEAKER_2: You know, I don't.
SPEAKER_1: Does that mean you can't make it funny or you don't handle difficult stuff?
SPEAKER_2: No, I don't really.
SPEAKER_2: You know, actually, you know, I do.
SPEAKER_2: You know, the thing that you have to do is not talk about the difficulty.
SPEAKER_2: You talk about what surrounds it.
SPEAKER_2: So, you know, for instance, before my father died, he was in the hospital, and I knew he was going to die.
SPEAKER_2: And I did jokes about my dad being in the hospital, but I never talked about him being sick.
SPEAKER_2: So that's kind of how you do it.
SPEAKER_1: Okay, so there's an orbit distance.
SPEAKER_2: There is.
SPEAKER_2: There is an orbit distance.
SPEAKER_1: Can I use that phrase?
SPEAKER_1: Permission to...
SPEAKER_2: I love how you bring science into anything.
SPEAKER_2: You find a way to bring some science into it.
SPEAKER_1: You got an orbit.
SPEAKER_1: Okay, so that's an interesting...
SPEAKER_1: So you find something that's in arms reach of the tragedy...
SPEAKER_2: Right...
SPEAKER_1: .
SPEAKER_1: that gives you more comedic latitude.
SPEAKER_1: Is that a fair way to put it?
SPEAKER_2: Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_2: And the fact is that pretty much everyone knows somebody who's been sick.
SPEAKER_2: So instead of talking about the person and their sickness, I find a way to relate that experience, because that's really what comedy is, is you're relating experiences.
SPEAKER_1: So what we really want to know from Norman Lear is how far can you take it?
SPEAKER_1: What's the limit of the comedy that you will reach for when we come back?
SPEAKER_1: In this StarTalk, we've been talking about the impact of sort of edgy sitcom comedy as pioneered by legendary TV producer, Norman Lear.
SPEAKER_1: And in particular, something that he did that I don't know that people did much before.
SPEAKER_1: He managed to create comedy folded and woven within the feelings that he was able to bring out from you for the characters that he portrayed.
SPEAKER_1: So the fact that you cared about the characters enabled a whole other level of comedy to be reached for.
SPEAKER_1: Let's check it out.
SPEAKER_1: In the 1970s, there was high inflation.
SPEAKER_1: The Women's Liberation Movement was emerging right on the heels of the Civil Rights Movement.
SPEAKER_1: And so then you have like Maude, right?
SPEAKER_1: I mean, that was a very strong character.
SPEAKER_1: And plus there are issues you dealt with like menopause.
SPEAKER_1: Who does that?
SPEAKER_1: That's odd.
SPEAKER_4: My mother, my aunts, my daughters, they all deal with it.
SPEAKER_1: So the message here is that we need to take creative people and just expose them to every problem in the world because then they'll turn it into something that the rest of us can embrace and react to.
SPEAKER_4: You know, it's simpler than that.
SPEAKER_4: We don't have to take them and expose them.
SPEAKER_4: If they live in, they are exposed.
SPEAKER_1: I know, but we're afraid to talk about it.
SPEAKER_1: We're afraid maybe no one else has it.
SPEAKER_1: We don't know how, we don't really understand our feelings.
SPEAKER_1: We need someone to interpret our feelings for us.
SPEAKER_1: Isn't that, that's what you do as an artist.
SPEAKER_4: I'm thinking about interpreting our feelings.
SPEAKER_4: I think more catching them or seeking to catch them, not interpreting them, they interpret their feelings.
SPEAKER_4: I'm thinking about that, this is not a casual answer.
SPEAKER_4: When you say interpreting their feelings.
SPEAKER_1: And I see that President Clinton gave you a National Medal of the Arts.
SPEAKER_1: What was in the citation for that?
SPEAKER_1: Do they care in particular for that?
SPEAKER_4: Reflecting society in the television shows.
SPEAKER_1: Reflecting, yeah.
SPEAKER_4: Helping people to understand, well I guess you say interpreting is not far from helping people understand.
SPEAKER_1: So you like my word, interpreting.
SPEAKER_4: Yes, I'm rethinking that.
SPEAKER_2: That is awesome.
SPEAKER_1: Man, you know, let's take a specific example.
SPEAKER_1: In Maude, she and her husband discussed whether or not she should have an abortion.
SPEAKER_1: And in another episode, Edith wants to invite her African American neighbors over for dinner.
SPEAKER_2: Ah, geez, Ed, dingbat.
SPEAKER_1: Much too.
SPEAKER_1: So these are frontier issues.
SPEAKER_3: Yeah, I think what's interesting is that we end up not so much just talking.
SPEAKER_3: It's not just an episode about abortion.
SPEAKER_3: It's an episode about a character that we care about, a character that we know really intimately, like Maude, thinking about having an abortion.
SPEAKER_3: And instead of there being an episode of All in the Family that's about integration in some sort of arid way, it's an episode about how is Archie Bunker going to respond when an African American sits down in his armchair?
SPEAKER_3: So it's really bringing it home, making it very domestic.
SPEAKER_1: In his favorite armchair.
SPEAKER_3: In his favorite armchair.
SPEAKER_1: Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_1: So is there anything today that's that edgy?
SPEAKER_1: Or have we touched all the edges and there are no edges left?
SPEAKER_3: I don't think a network sitcom could have an episode about abortion today without people being up in arms about it.
SPEAKER_1: So we've regressed.
SPEAKER_3: In some ways, yes.
SPEAKER_1: So there are levels here.
SPEAKER_1: You can imagine influencing the viewer.
SPEAKER_1: But how about influencing people who then influence others?
SPEAKER_1: And there's a multiplier effect.
SPEAKER_1: So let's see Norman Lear's reaction to knowing that you can affect people and other people who those people affect themselves.
SPEAKER_1: Let's find out.
SPEAKER_1: So it's one thing to influence the public.
SPEAKER_1: It's another thing to influence people who then continue to influence.
SPEAKER_1: And I read that Trey Parker, one of the creators of South Park, was influenced by the irreverence of your storytelling.
SPEAKER_1: And we might not have had South Park.
SPEAKER_4: They wanted to do, they loved Archie Bunker.
SPEAKER_4: And they decided to do Archie Bunker as a small boy, Cartman.
SPEAKER_4: And they have said you can find...
SPEAKER_1: I didn't know that.
SPEAKER_1: There it is.
SPEAKER_2: That's awesome.
SPEAKER_1: So who would, I didn't know that.
SPEAKER_2: I did not know that either.
SPEAKER_1: Did you?
SPEAKER_3: No, that was new to me.
SPEAKER_1: Wait, you didn't know this?
SPEAKER_3: No.
SPEAKER_1: Snap.
SPEAKER_1: You better go back and get the next edition of your book.
SPEAKER_2: See, but that lets you know, back to what we were talking about, the changes.
SPEAKER_2: See, you can be irreverent when you're animated.
SPEAKER_2: All the animated cartoons are completely and totally irreverent.
SPEAKER_2: Family Guy, The Simpsons, South Park.
SPEAKER_1: They'll do stuff human people can't do.
SPEAKER_2: Can not do.
SPEAKER_1: Yeah.
SPEAKER_2: Because you can't sue a cartoon, I guess.
SPEAKER_1: Let me ask you, what's the most influential sitcom on your life?
SPEAKER_3: In my life?
SPEAKER_1: Yeah.
SPEAKER_1: On your life?
SPEAKER_3: I guess Seinfeld.
SPEAKER_1: Seinfeld, is that right?
SPEAKER_1: Yeah.
SPEAKER_1: Are you a native New Yorker?
SPEAKER_3: No, I grew up in Los Angeles.
SPEAKER_2: Wow.
SPEAKER_2: Whoa.
SPEAKER_1: Okay, and how about you?
SPEAKER_2: Maude.
SPEAKER_1: Really?
SPEAKER_2: Yes, because I am now married to an aging woman going through menopause.
SPEAKER_3: Okay.
SPEAKER_1: People who influence others, I always want to know what other forces influence them.
SPEAKER_1: And I asked that of Norman Lear, and we're going to find out when we return on StarTalk.
SPEAKER_1: You know, Norman Lear pioneered sitcom television, but I'm a science person, so I always like to know, has science touched people's lives in any way?
SPEAKER_1: Even in subtle ways?
SPEAKER_1: And I wanted to see, knowing that Norman Lear lived through and observed the space program and the moonshots, I wanted to know, did this touch him in some way that otherwise influenced his life?
SPEAKER_1: Let's find out what he says in my office.
SPEAKER_1: When we landed on the moon, given how much you had seen, how impossible was that in your mind?
SPEAKER_1: Your state of mind, was it, we landed on the moon, anything is possible?
SPEAKER_1: Because you used to think it was impossible?
SPEAKER_1: Is that?
SPEAKER_4: I think I was more an observer who was fascinated to the point of thrilled by the reaction I was observing in the world around me.
SPEAKER_1: Almost anthropologically, seeing.
SPEAKER_4: Yes, more, I guess, I being more the scientist observing it than the individual.
SPEAKER_1: Participating in the celebration itself.
SPEAKER_4: In my book, that's a kind of a theme.
SPEAKER_1: In his autobiography, it's even this I get to experience.
SPEAKER_1: He talks all about how this happens.
SPEAKER_1: So I always wondered how things affect you.
SPEAKER_1: What's going on in life and in society?
SPEAKER_1: What force science might have on you?
SPEAKER_1: And it can affect you, I think, even if you're not conscious of it.
SPEAKER_1: For example, in what's the number one sitcom today?
SPEAKER_3: The Big Bang Theory.
SPEAKER_1: The Big Bang Theory, and I think we have a relationship with that.
SPEAKER_1: Even if you don't know anybody like that, their characters are entertaining, though they be caricatures.
SPEAKER_1: They're entertaining.
SPEAKER_1: And so what kind of audacity did it require to pitch a show on science when no one else was doing it, no one else had ever done it?
SPEAKER_1: What does that take?
SPEAKER_2: I have a theory that they didn't say it was a show about science.
SPEAKER_2: They lived on the name alone, the Big Bang Theory.
SPEAKER_2: And the people in Hollywood like, I like it.
SPEAKER_1: Okay, you think it was just...
SPEAKER_1: Okay, so science has changed over the years and can influence you in different ways.
SPEAKER_1: And I was just curious how the changing landscape of science might have influenced Norman Lear.
SPEAKER_1: So let's find out what he said.
SPEAKER_4: But you know, we're living at a time where I'm hearing from kids in college and kids about to go to college and from the people around them that you have to go into business to make money.
SPEAKER_4: And making money is where it's at.
SPEAKER_4: I say that wanting to convey the greatest disappointment.
SPEAKER_4: Science, which was at a bigger premium, it seems to me, 10 years ago, is diminishing along with medicine and a lot of other things as a career interest for young people because hedge funds and investment and real estate and so forth deliver so much more money with so much less education.
SPEAKER_1: So it's a brain drain from one field to another.
SPEAKER_1: From the fields that could be shaping our future to fields where people just get rich.
SPEAKER_1: But at some point, they're getting rich off of industries and innovations that somebody has to be engaged in on the other side of that fence.
SPEAKER_4: Yeah, but those are like pebbles on the beach.
SPEAKER_4: You know, if you walk on the beach, you'll pick them up there.
SPEAKER_1: No, the reason why I'm laughing because Isaac Newton has a very famous quote where he refers to pebbles on the beach.
SPEAKER_1: Well, let's not share everything.
SPEAKER_1: I can only paraphrase it.
SPEAKER_1: Sometimes I feel like a child picking up pebbles on the beach, keeping one that is more shiny than the other, when the ocean of undiscovered truths lay before me.
SPEAKER_4: That's great.
SPEAKER_4: It says it.
SPEAKER_4: All the truths are out there to be found.
SPEAKER_2: Wow, that was profound.
SPEAKER_1: Well, Newton is a profound guy.
SPEAKER_2: You know what?
SPEAKER_2: Something tells me he is.
SPEAKER_2: Something tells me Isaac Newton is a little bit profound.
SPEAKER_1: I'm just saying.
SPEAKER_1: So, can you reflect on TV's attitudes toward science over the years?
SPEAKER_3: I think popular culture in general has gotten a more positive attitude toward science recently, away from the kind of doom and gloom of scientists causing doomsday or blowing up the world.
SPEAKER_1: It's always the scientist's fault.
SPEAKER_1: But in the 60s, we had my favorite, Martian.
SPEAKER_3: Sure.
SPEAKER_1: Right, and we had I Dream a Genie.
SPEAKER_3: Sure.
SPEAKER_1: That one, one of my favorite shows ever.
SPEAKER_2: Because there were astronauts or because of the genie?
SPEAKER_1: Yes, that's why, because of the astronauts.
SPEAKER_1: No, yeah, it was a sensitive time in my hormonal development that that show happened to come along.
SPEAKER_1: All I can think of how much of an idiot he is that there's this woman, a genie he can do anything with, and he doesn't.
SPEAKER_1: But he's distracted by his astronaut career, I guess.
SPEAKER_2: Yeah, because we all know the first wish that most of us would have is, I want two more of you.
SPEAKER_2: Two more genies who look just like you.
SPEAKER_1: So would you agree that things are improving, have a little more confidence than Norman Lear had in this comment?
SPEAKER_3: Yeah, I think you can look at a film like Interstellar, which has a really positive outlook on science, and the scientists are the heroes of the film.
SPEAKER_1: And they're fully fleshed out characters with emotions and families, and their husbands and wives and children and grandparents.
SPEAKER_3: Exactly, they're not just sort of Dr.
SPEAKER_3: Strangelove figures.
SPEAKER_1: Right, right, or wire-haired people with lab coats that you only address when you need an answer, and then you leave them behind, not caring if they've ever been in love, or whether they actually have genuine personalities or characters.
SPEAKER_2: Wait a minute, scientists feel love?
SPEAKER_4: Get out of here.
SPEAKER_1: So, do you see a bright future for more science in sitcoms, given the success of The Big Bang Theory?
SPEAKER_3: I think in some ways The Big Bang Theory is likely to be one of a kind.
SPEAKER_3: It's hard for me to imagine a way that another sitcom is going to be as science-heavy.
SPEAKER_1: How could you possibly say that when there's uncountable numbers of doctor dramas, lawyer dramas, cop dramas?
SPEAKER_1: Now you're going to say there's one science program and you can't think of others?
SPEAKER_3: I would love to see more, but I'm guessing that network executives are likely to say, well, The Big Bang Theory already covered that, so I don't know if we're going to go back there again.
SPEAKER_1: When was the last time you said, oh, we already had a doctor program 10 years ago, we're not going to have another?
SPEAKER_1: No, they're the great imitators.
SPEAKER_2: Something's telling me you should have just said yes.
SPEAKER_3: Can I change my answer?
SPEAKER_1: Okay, can he change his answer?
SPEAKER_1: No, you're too late.
SPEAKER_1: So we know Norman Lear helped change and mature our attitudes as television viewers, and he did that in this period of time where he had lead sitcoms that had spin-off sitcoms, The Jeffersons, Maude and the like, but what's he up to lately?
SPEAKER_1: He's 92 years old, is he still at it?
SPEAKER_1: Yes, he's still at it.
SPEAKER_1: And when he came by my office, I had to say, what have you been doing lately?
SPEAKER_1: You'll find out after the break.
SPEAKER_1: We'll see you in a moment on StarTalk.
SPEAKER_1: From the whole of the universe, to the American Museum of Natural History, Chuck Nice, like I said, it's always good having you.
SPEAKER_1: Saul, you're an expert on sitcoms.
SPEAKER_2: I didn't even think that was a thing to be, and you are that.
SPEAKER_1: So great to have you here, because our topic of interest, this whole show has been Norman Lear, all 92 years of him.
SPEAKER_1: And we know him from his pioneering sitcoms decades ago, but I wondered what he had been up to lately.
SPEAKER_1: And he told me, he founded an organization called People for the American Way.
SPEAKER_1: And I thought I'd heard about it, but I didn't know quite much about it.
SPEAKER_2: Yeah, because that sounds very Republican super PAC.
SPEAKER_1: Let's find out what he means by People for the American Way.
SPEAKER_4: I did a 60-second commercial, PSA, in reaction to the proliferation of evangelicals on television, mixing politics and religion.
SPEAKER_4: Fennan had a working staff on a piece of factory equipment, clearly with a hard hat.
SPEAKER_4: He's looking in the camera, and he says that he and his wife and his kids sit around the kitchen table talking politics, and they disagree about a lot of things.
SPEAKER_4: Now come ministers on the radio and television telling you and telling them that they are good Christians or bad ones, depending on their political point of view.
SPEAKER_4: So he winds up saying there's got to be something wrong when anyone, even a minister, tells you you are a good or a bad Christian, depending on your political point of view, that's not the American way.
SPEAKER_4: And I took it to Father Hesburgh at Notre Dame, and he just thought the piece I had made and the guy saying what I just said was terrific.
SPEAKER_4: He said, you know, you're going to find, Norman, that mainline church leaders will agree with you, but in addition to what you're saying politically, there's something else that's troubling them and me.
SPEAKER_4: And I said, what is that, sir?
SPEAKER_4: He said, the way they torture scripture.
SPEAKER_4: And those words lived big in my head.
SPEAKER_1: So it's interesting because he did that in the 1980s.
SPEAKER_1: That's when that organization was founded.
SPEAKER_1: I don't remember religion being a topic in any of his sitcoms, was it?
SPEAKER_1: Not quite so much.
SPEAKER_3: Archie Bunker is obviously an equal opportunity bigot, so a lot of his jibes are at various members of religious groups.
SPEAKER_1: Mostly the Jews.
SPEAKER_1: So do you think that was taboo back then?
SPEAKER_3: I think it was taboo in the same way that a lot of the other topics that All in the Family and some of his other shows tackle.
SPEAKER_1: Yeah, but he tackled him.
SPEAKER_1: But apparently it was too taboo for him to tackle until later on when all the shows were done and he takes on a whole other political angle.
SPEAKER_3: No, there are some pretty funny jokes on All in the Family about religion.
SPEAKER_1: Like what?
SPEAKER_1: Give me one.
SPEAKER_3: Well, Archie is talking about how he respects the Bible and he respects it so much that he doesn't want to ever go to church.
SPEAKER_3: You know, so Archie himself...
SPEAKER_1: Archie Bunker reasoning.
SPEAKER_1: The logic of Archie Bunker.
SPEAKER_3: You know, he doesn't want to have anything to do with the local priest.
SPEAKER_3: It's too much of a good thing.
SPEAKER_3: While at the same time he's lecturing, you know, various people in his household about what the Bible does or doesn't say.
SPEAKER_1: Okay, but in no time is there conflict talked about between religion and any other emergent philosophies or even science, of course, that no one has even gone there yet.
SPEAKER_3: No, no.
SPEAKER_1: In fact, let's go back to my interview with Norman Lear and just talk a little bit more about religion and politics.
SPEAKER_1: Okay.
SPEAKER_1: Find out what he tells us.
SPEAKER_1: I don't see any problem with them making their religion a big point of why they would get elected if that is who they're representing.
SPEAKER_1: So my issue as a scientist is if someone tries to take a religious philosophy and then create legislation based on that, because then the legislation affects everybody, no matter your religion, and then you end up overstepping sort of the privacy and the sanctity of a belief system.
SPEAKER_4: Well, that's what happens in my belief when God gets in the public square.
SPEAKER_4: My sense, and perhaps the next thing I want to do, is a Sunday morning nonsectarian church service that celebrates our common humanity.
SPEAKER_1: That's kind of what secularism is, right?
SPEAKER_1: I mean, is that a little aspect of it?
SPEAKER_4: Yes, but it's not really discussed.
SPEAKER_4: Like, a lot of things are not really discussed.
SPEAKER_4: God wants, I don't want to do away with God or anybody's specific method of prayer or belief, but it belongs here.
SPEAKER_4: Like, no two thumb prints, no two snowflakes, no two peoples compact with the Almighty, the deity, God.
SPEAKER_4: It's the same.
SPEAKER_4: Inarticulable.
SPEAKER_4: It's so much, the belonging of each of us.
SPEAKER_4: Keep it there.
SPEAKER_4: Keep it in the family.
SPEAKER_4: Keep it in the church.
SPEAKER_4: In the public square, we celebrate that river of reverence that nurtures all of us.
SPEAKER_4: That's a message.
SPEAKER_4: That's one more message I'd like to get across.
SPEAKER_1: When we come back, we're going to tackle one of my favorite subjects of them all, the cosmic perspective on StarTalk.
SPEAKER_1: Back on StarTalk from the Hall of the Universe here in New York City, the American Museum of Natural History.
SPEAKER_1: So of course, we know that TV can shape our entire view of the world, affect our emotions, our actions, maybe even how we vote.
SPEAKER_1: A person who's an expert, not only in comedy, but also on the role of television in influencing our lives is a good friend of mine, Bill Nye, the science guy.
SPEAKER_1: Let's find out what he has to say about this topic.
SPEAKER_5: American Museum of Natural History, sir, if you would.
SPEAKER_5: So Norman Lear created television that we had never seen before.
SPEAKER_5: You know, the saying is, our media reflects society.
SPEAKER_5: Like, whatever's going on in society, you're going to see it in our media, in our newspapers, in television shows.
SPEAKER_5: But Norman Lear gave us something to think about in every one of those shows.
SPEAKER_5: I remember the scene in All in the Family when Archie Bunker has a beer, Sammy Davis Jr.
SPEAKER_5: takes a sip of it and hands it back to him.
SPEAKER_5: And Archie Bunker has to decide whether or not he's going to take a sip from a black man's beer.
SPEAKER_5: And everybody knew the implications.
SPEAKER_5: Like this is, why wouldn't he sip it?
SPEAKER_5: I mean, we're all humans, we're all in this together, but somehow we feel that we're different from each other.
SPEAKER_5: So Norman Lear took three centuries of injustice and slavery and crystallized it for you to evaluate in just 30 seconds.
SPEAKER_5: I mean, that is not easy to do.
SPEAKER_5: But Norman Lear did it on show after show, week after week, year after year.
SPEAKER_5: You've got to respect that.
SPEAKER_5: Way to go, Mr.
SPEAKER_5: Lear.
SPEAKER_6: You changed the world.
SPEAKER_6: Bring on the light.
SPEAKER_5: Can you believe the way people drive in this town?
SPEAKER_1: We've been featuring my interview with Norman Lear.
SPEAKER_1: He came by my office, and I said, let me nab him for some interview time, and we did.
SPEAKER_1: I generally carry with me a cosmic perspective, how I think about the world and how it all fits together.
SPEAKER_1: And one of the things I worry about is how people can take the knowledge we have of the universe and cherry pick it in ways that serve only their private interests or their political, cultural, social, religious interests.
SPEAKER_1: And so I wondered, is there a way that the creativity of Norman Lear can be brought to bear on solving this problem?
SPEAKER_1: Let's find out what he told me.
SPEAKER_4: Can I tell you how I talk about it?
SPEAKER_4: My sister, some years ago, she was complaining about something in her community, and I said, well, why don't you let it to the mayor or the alderman or councilwoman, and she said, well, I'm Claire Lear, I'm not Norman Lear.
SPEAKER_4: So I called her back a couple of days later and I said...
SPEAKER_1: She's saying she would not possibly have the influence that you would.
SPEAKER_4: Yes, she would have the name, you know, the influence.
SPEAKER_4: And I said, Claire, and this is a prayerful woman, a woman who thinks about these things.
SPEAKER_4: I said, Claire, we are living on a planet among which there are, they tell us there are billions.
SPEAKER_4: In the universe of which they tell us there could also be billions.
SPEAKER_4: And this has been going on for who knows how long.
SPEAKER_4: Can you get your fingers close enough to measure the difference of the influence of any two of us or the importance of any two of us, you being one individual on a planet of a billion and a universe of billions?
SPEAKER_4: And well, but you couldn't do better than well, but.
SPEAKER_4: Because that is, I see it so clearly that way.
SPEAKER_1: And that's in part what we call a cosmic perspective.
SPEAKER_1: It's the bigger view.
SPEAKER_4: Yes, and I think about that.
SPEAKER_1: Where everything is in context, the size and scale and time and everything.
SPEAKER_1: Let me ask you, Saul, does shows like his just make people laugh or do they actually empower people to then take responsibility for changing society?
SPEAKER_3: I think they definitely empower people.
SPEAKER_3: I think what's interesting is that the sitcom from the very beginning has been a very domestic medium about the home, about the family, and what Norman Lear and some of the other innovators of the 1970s managed to do was they took that domestic form and invested it with some of the hot button issues of the time and made those personal as well.
SPEAKER_1: So is there any evidence that people changed after this?
SPEAKER_2: I think there's some evidence that television in general, not just sitcoms, but it changes people's perspective.
SPEAKER_2: But with sitcoms you look at Modern Family.
SPEAKER_2: Don't you think that that has had something to do with the way that we view people's nuclear families?
SPEAKER_1: Or is it just a reflection of what we already know is out there?
SPEAKER_3: I think it's a mix.
SPEAKER_3: I think it depends on the show.
SPEAKER_3: I think it's always falling behind and catching up and jumping ahead.
SPEAKER_3: I mean, you mentioned Modern Family, but I think a show like Will and Grace really managed to push the issue.
SPEAKER_1: I forgot about Will and Grace.
SPEAKER_1: That counts as a sitcom, I guess.
SPEAKER_2: Definitely.
SPEAKER_1: Yeah, not a drama.
SPEAKER_2: Yeah, and I think that that definitely had some influence in the way that we thought about gay people and their relationship to society in general.
SPEAKER_2: Yeah.
SPEAKER_3: I mean, sitcoms come into our house.
SPEAKER_3: So the people who star on sitcoms are like our surrogate friends.
SPEAKER_3: So I think encountering a gay person on a regular basis, even on TV, begins to change people's attitudes in a way that other things aren't necessarily able to.
SPEAKER_1: That's encouraging because the characters on The Big Bang Theory, they're all caricatures of what they represent.
SPEAKER_1: But I'd like to think that everyone wants to look for a geek friend at that point that they bring to the party, right?
SPEAKER_2: By the way, I'm just saying I'm available.
SPEAKER_1: Let me see your geek card.
SPEAKER_1: You know, so Norman Lear is 92 years old and I did not want to end my interview with him without asking him for words of wisdom for us all.
SPEAKER_1: Let's find out.
SPEAKER_4: Somebody told me this once.
SPEAKER_4: I was fussing around trying to say something like this in answer to a question in front of some people and a rabbinic-looking guy, he was, I was younger, he was older, came up to me afterwards.
SPEAKER_4: He said, Mr.
SPEAKER_4: Lear, I want to try to tell you in short what you took so long trying to, he was criticizing me in the sweetest way.
SPEAKER_4: And he said, a man should have a garment with two pockets and the first pocket should be a piece of paper on which is written, I am but dust and ashes.
SPEAKER_4: I am that proverbial grain of sand on the beach of life.
SPEAKER_4: And the second pocket should be a piece of paper on which is written, for me the world was created.
SPEAKER_4: While few things have resonated so clearly, cleanly with me.
SPEAKER_4: What was Neil Tyson born for, if not for this moment?
SPEAKER_4: And this moment is for me.
SPEAKER_4: The fellow holding the camera doesn't know it, but he was born to be here now for me.
SPEAKER_4: And obviously I was born 92 years ago to be here for all of you.
SPEAKER_2: Wow.
SPEAKER_2: I'm confused.
SPEAKER_2: My genes have five pockets.
SPEAKER_1: I'm reminded of a quote similar to that.
SPEAKER_1: I think it was by Mark Twain who said, the two most important days of your life are the day you were born and the day you learn why.
SPEAKER_1: And my guests, my co-host Chuck Nice, tweeting at Chuck Nice Comic.
SPEAKER_2: That's right, Chuck Nice Comic.
SPEAKER_1: And Saul, thanks for coming on.
SPEAKER_3: My pleasure, thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_1: You've got the book, a sitcom history in 24 episodes from I Love Lucy to Community.
SPEAKER_1: I'm going to buy that now because I didn't even know you could do that.
SPEAKER_1: And of course Norman Lear, his autobiography, Even This, I Get to Experience.
SPEAKER_1: This has been StarTalk, the collision of science and pop culture from the Hall of the Universe at the American Museum of Natural History.
SPEAKER_1: And as always, I bid you to keep looking up.