SPEAKER_1: Welcome to StarTalk, your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide.
SPEAKER_1: StarTalk begins right now.
SPEAKER_2: Now.
SPEAKER_1: This is StarTalk.
SPEAKER_1: I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson.
SPEAKER_1: You're a personal astrophysicist.
SPEAKER_1: I work at the American Museum of Natural History in New York City, where I serve as director of the Hayden Planetarium there.
SPEAKER_1: And I got with me in studio, as my cohost, Chuck Nice.
SPEAKER_2: Hey, Neil.
SPEAKER_2: Chuck.
SPEAKER_1: Good having you, always.
SPEAKER_2: You know it, man.
SPEAKER_1: You rock the house, you know?
SPEAKER_1: You got a whole, you have a whole fan community of people who like hearing you just on StarTalk.
SPEAKER_2: That is true.
SPEAKER_2: And I love those people.
SPEAKER_1: That means I don't like you anywhere else.
SPEAKER_1: That's what that means.
SPEAKER_2: Yes, and most of them are my family, but hey, what can we say?
SPEAKER_1: So today, we're gonna talk about Cosmos, the show.
SPEAKER_1: What?
SPEAKER_1: I know.
SPEAKER_2: Awesome.
SPEAKER_1: I know.
SPEAKER_2: Finally, it's gonna happen here on StarTalk.
SPEAKER_1: I'm a little uncomfortable, cause like I'm in it, you know?
SPEAKER_2: Yes, you are Cosmos.
SPEAKER_1: No, I'm in Cosmos, all right?
SPEAKER_1: So what I figured, what we should do, so it's not gonna be about me as host, let's find out how Cosmos got made.
SPEAKER_2: Which by the way, you as host gotta say, okay, don't take this the wrong way.
SPEAKER_2: I was a little surprised, man.
SPEAKER_2: You do a great job.
SPEAKER_2: No, you really do a good job.
SPEAKER_1: I'll take that in the schoolyard after.
SPEAKER_1: Pick that up.
SPEAKER_2: Great show.
SPEAKER_1: So I thought one way to get some insight into this is to bring into studio one of the co-writers of Cosmos, a friend and colleague, Dr.
SPEAKER_1: Steve Soter.
SPEAKER_1: Steve.
SPEAKER_3: Hi, Neil.
SPEAKER_1: Welcome to StarTalk.
SPEAKER_3: Thank you, it's good to be here.
SPEAKER_1: Yeah, yeah, excellent.
SPEAKER_1: And so he's not just any writer, by the way.
SPEAKER_1: First of all, he co-wrote the first two space shows in the reopening of the New Rose Center for Earth and Space back in 2000, where the Hayden Planetarium is.
SPEAKER_1: So you not only did that, all right, now you keep part in the curtains, and you go back and then you find out that he was one of the co-writers of the original Cosmos.
SPEAKER_1: Whoa.
SPEAKER_2: Steve, that is highly impressive, my friend.
SPEAKER_1: Are we here just to...
SPEAKER_2: You cannot nod, though, Steve.
SPEAKER_2: This is radio.
SPEAKER_2: I know you're being humble.
SPEAKER_2: I was like, that's highly impressive.
SPEAKER_2: He's like nodding his head, like, yes, Chuck, yes, it was.
SPEAKER_1: Yeah, as a matter of fact, right.
SPEAKER_1: Okay, Chuck can vocalize your miming, I guess, if what it is.
SPEAKER_1: So he's genetically linked to the beginning, and the three original writers were Carl Sagan himself, of course, and Andrean and Steven Soter.
SPEAKER_1: And I think we can get Andrean on another show.
SPEAKER_1: And so we get the two co-writers to talk about just the genesis of Cosmos.
SPEAKER_2: That is fascinating, man.
SPEAKER_2: I mean, literally, it's so cool to have, and please don't take this the wrong way, but you're like living history, man.
SPEAKER_2: You know, please don't take it like that.
SPEAKER_1: He's the thousand year old man.
SPEAKER_2: See, I knew it would come out wrong.
SPEAKER_2: I knew it would come out wrong.
SPEAKER_1: Anytime someone says, don't take this the wrong way, they're gonna take it the wrong way, all right?
SPEAKER_1: They're gonna take it the right way, which is the wrong way, all right.
SPEAKER_1: So I'm gonna start off, Steve.
SPEAKER_1: Steve, you're a colleague of mine, you're a trained scientist, I happen to know, that your PhD thesis involved planet orbits and stabilities and this sort of thing, if I remember correctly.
SPEAKER_1: You're a solar system type guy.
SPEAKER_1: Right.
SPEAKER_1: And that's fine.
SPEAKER_1: It's not, you can stretch out into the rest of the universe because you're a scientist.
SPEAKER_1: But one of the things that distinguishes Cosmos is how often it references history.
SPEAKER_1: And every time I talk to you about some historical thing that happened, oh yes, that was the Count and the Duke of Earl of this, and he had a budget that he made a telescope that had this lens configuration.
SPEAKER_1: I said, where are you getting this?
SPEAKER_1: So what accounts for this whole background in history that you have?
SPEAKER_3: I've just been reading history of science forever and I love the stuff.
SPEAKER_1: Okay, so the translation is he doesn't own a television.
SPEAKER_1: Steve, just to put this on the table, do you own a television?
SPEAKER_3: No.
SPEAKER_1: Right, right, see?
SPEAKER_1: So when you're not watching TV, you're reading.
SPEAKER_2: There you go, kids.
SPEAKER_2: There you go, kids, there's your key.
SPEAKER_2: There's your key to success in life, academic success.
SPEAKER_2: Throw your television out.
SPEAKER_1: Down the stairs, right.
SPEAKER_1: So you just read, but you could be reading anything.
SPEAKER_3: Yeah, but history of science is one of my favorites.
SPEAKER_3: These are wonderful stories.
SPEAKER_3: And also, it's a way to look back and see when these discoveries were made, what people didn't know, and to think.
SPEAKER_1: And what they thought they knew.
SPEAKER_3: And what they thought they knew, and to realize that we're in the same position.
SPEAKER_1: We modern people.
SPEAKER_2: Yes.
SPEAKER_2: So are you saying, psychologically, we respond to science the same way as people did in 1400?
SPEAKER_3: Well, I'm saying that they didn't know a lot and they thought that they knew certain things.
SPEAKER_2: Right.
SPEAKER_3: We're in the same position.
SPEAKER_2: Same thing.
SPEAKER_2: So the more we know, the more we know we don't know.
SPEAKER_3: Yes.
SPEAKER_2: Gotcha.
SPEAKER_1: Wait, wait, but wait, just wait.
SPEAKER_1: Science does progress, all right?
SPEAKER_1: So we know stuff today that we didn't know in 1400.
SPEAKER_1: But we now know enough to know more stuff that we don't know that we wouldn't even have known to ask in 1400.
SPEAKER_1: Is that fair, Steve?
SPEAKER_3: Yes, but also reading what was happening back then, knowing what we know now, puts a whole different light on it.
SPEAKER_1: Okay, so what you're saying is it makes you a little more humble in modern times.
SPEAKER_3: Yes.
SPEAKER_1: About how seriously you will treat somebody's idea.
SPEAKER_3: Yes, and also we realize that a lot of what we think we know now is certainly wrong.
SPEAKER_3: But we don't know which parts are wrong.
SPEAKER_1: Ha, Steve, that's not very encouraging.
SPEAKER_1: You make this profound declaratory statement.
SPEAKER_1: There are things that we think are true today that will surely be wrong.
SPEAKER_3: But that's what the history of science tells us.
SPEAKER_3: And I can't tell you what those things are.
SPEAKER_3: We're gonna have to find out.
SPEAKER_3: But we have a method to do it.
SPEAKER_3: It's an error correcting method of investigation by interrogating nature itself.
SPEAKER_3: And it works very well.
SPEAKER_3: It's gotten us this far.
SPEAKER_3: It's gotten us where we can be using these electrons to send this conversation at the speed of light to a large audience.
SPEAKER_1: These electrons, like he's buds with the electricity.
SPEAKER_1: These electrons, you got your electrons, I got mine.
SPEAKER_1: I got mine, right.
SPEAKER_1: So, all right, so not only is the facts of history, but there's the psychology of what's going on in the surrounding towns, the politics, the scientists themselves.
SPEAKER_1: And you dug all this up with Anne and made storytelling out of it.
SPEAKER_1: Yes.
SPEAKER_1: No, that's awesome because I knew some of the stories because I do a little bit of reading a history myself, but not nothing like the depths that you guys went into.
SPEAKER_1: And so there I am as I tell these stories.
SPEAKER_1: People say, oh, look at that Tyson, what a historian.
SPEAKER_1: No, it should be, I should carry the credits with me as I'm reading it, as I'm telling it.
SPEAKER_1: But no, these are great.
SPEAKER_1: So it's not just the facts of the history, it's the culture of the history.
SPEAKER_3: Yes.
SPEAKER_1: And so that works.
SPEAKER_1: So you know what I wonder, Steve, when we come back from the break, I'm gonna ask you, is there some story going on now which you think in 100 years would make a good story in the cosmos of the year 2100?
SPEAKER_1: Yeah.
SPEAKER_2: Look at that.
SPEAKER_1: Yeah.
SPEAKER_2: Look at Steve, his wheels are, I see he is, he is turning away right now.
SPEAKER_2: That's a good question.
SPEAKER_1: He doesn't just use wheels, he uses gears, okay?
SPEAKER_1: Wheels, that's old school.
SPEAKER_1: You turn a wheel into a machine, you got a gear.
SPEAKER_2: You got that?
SPEAKER_2: I see the gears and cogs at work there.
SPEAKER_2: There you go.
SPEAKER_1: When we come back, more StarTalk Radio topic today, the making of Cosmos.
SPEAKER_1: We're back on StarTalk Radio.
SPEAKER_1: I'm your personal astrophysicist, Neil deGrasse Tyson.
SPEAKER_1: And do I have a personal commuting?
SPEAKER_2: Yes, you do.
SPEAKER_2: Your personal standup comic, Chuck Nice.
SPEAKER_1: Chuck Nice, there you go, there you go.
SPEAKER_1: We've got in studio a friend and colleague, Steven Soter, who's an astrophysicist who co-wrote Cosmos.
SPEAKER_2: Awesome.
SPEAKER_1: And you might say, which Cosmos, the original or this one?
SPEAKER_1: Ask me that.
SPEAKER_2: Which one, the original or this one?
SPEAKER_1: Both.
SPEAKER_2: My mind is blown.
SPEAKER_2: Did you hear that small explosion?
SPEAKER_1: So Steve, could you tell me the, I mean, I've written, I know how to write.
SPEAKER_1: I mean, we're all literate folks in this room, but I would have never felt comfortable writing for television.
SPEAKER_1: What is the, what's different here?
SPEAKER_3: Well, you have to write to, it's a visual medium.
SPEAKER_3: You have to see what you're writing to and you have to compress it enormously because there's not a whole lot of time to be expansive as you are on the written page of literature.
SPEAKER_1: So on a written page, words can go wherever you want and you can be all flowery.
SPEAKER_3: Right, but here you're constrained by the medium.
SPEAKER_2: Now, how do you do that without sacrificing the information that you're disseminating?
SPEAKER_3: It's hard work to distill it, to get the essentials.
SPEAKER_2: If you say so yourself.
SPEAKER_1: Right, so if you, so part of your challenge is, but you have to know how effective the visual medium is as its own conveyor.
SPEAKER_3: You have to be able to imagine what you're gonna be seeing that will accompany what you're writing.
SPEAKER_2: Ah.
SPEAKER_1: And so this went through your head when you co-wrote our first two space shows in the new Planetarium, presumably.
SPEAKER_3: Yes, I mean, I was imagining what these scenes would look like, and in some cases, they actually turned out to look much better than I imagined.
SPEAKER_1: Oh, that's okay.
SPEAKER_1: That means you don't have a good imagination.
SPEAKER_3: It means there were some very clever people on the visual end.
SPEAKER_1: Right, it's part of the collaboration of making this stuff work.
SPEAKER_1: Right, I mean, one of my, for me, I'm an interloper in the TV world, really.
SPEAKER_1: I'd rather just stay in my lab.
SPEAKER_1: And you see me on TV, but when I'm there getting filmed, I see the hundred people making the product.
SPEAKER_1: The producers, the gaffers, the lighting people, the directors, the assistant director, the hair, makeup.
SPEAKER_2: Don't forget craft services.
SPEAKER_1: Craft services.
SPEAKER_2: Very, very important, very important.
SPEAKER_1: I got all trim and slim for the series.
SPEAKER_1: After the series, I was 20 pounds.
SPEAKER_1: They're feeding you all the time.
SPEAKER_2: All the time.
SPEAKER_1: All the time.
SPEAKER_1: Now, Steve, as you know, this show aired on Fox.
SPEAKER_1: You can't get more mainstream than Fox.
SPEAKER_1: This is not PBS.
SPEAKER_1: This is not the Science Channel in the extra package for cable.
SPEAKER_1: This is mainstream primetime.
SPEAKER_1: So at some point, one would have an expectation that you are plugged into pop culture if you're communicating with pop culture.
SPEAKER_1: So how would you rate your pop culture index?
SPEAKER_3: About zero.
SPEAKER_3: Zero.
SPEAKER_1: Oh, you're not Kardashian fluent?
SPEAKER_3: No, no, it stops at about 1940.
SPEAKER_3: I'm interested in pop culture before about that period, but not much afterwards.
SPEAKER_1: Wow, okay, okay, so that means the conversations you and I have about pop culture, that's your only lifeline.
SPEAKER_3: That's right.
SPEAKER_1: Okay, I didn't know I was that important to you.
SPEAKER_1: Okay, so in terms of, but language, and I mean, you're an astute listener and observer of current events and things.
SPEAKER_3: Oh yeah, I keep up with the news.
SPEAKER_2: So then how do you in turn take that and present something like Cosmos, my, here's the thing that's great about it, writing-wise, I love it.
SPEAKER_2: And I'm a person who's loved science and is curious about science and wants to learn.
SPEAKER_2: My eight-year-old son watches it with me.
SPEAKER_2: He loves it.
SPEAKER_2: So now how is it that you're able to talk to two disparate audiences who are, I was going to say-
SPEAKER_1: Did you say desperate or disparate?
SPEAKER_2: Disparate.
SPEAKER_2: But two disparate audiences, I said it again, disparate audiences who are, hopefully, one is intellectually more advanced than the other.
SPEAKER_3: Well, we did that in the Planetarium shows.
SPEAKER_3: Our audience is everyone, from children to PhD scientists, and we had to find a way to provide something that everyone would like, and it's hard work.
SPEAKER_3: All I can tell you is it's hard work.
SPEAKER_1: Yeah, but sure, but to do it in a way that the people who are in the know don't feel like they're wasting their time or that you're talking down to them, and obviously, the young kids are not gonna get everything, right, but there's some.
SPEAKER_3: Well, I've had a lot of experience talking to people throughout my career, people of all ages, and learning what they respond to, what they understand, and what would be over their heads.
SPEAKER_1: Okay, so things that can not be over people's heads, but you can still appreciate on different levels.
SPEAKER_3: And the challenge is really to try to still get to the heart of the subject, to not oversimplify it, to connect with the real depths of the subject, but convey that in a way that people can understand.
SPEAKER_1: Okay, I think that's the ticket right there, because if you stay true to the theme, true to the idea, then the idea comes through no matter how you shape it.
SPEAKER_2: Right, that makes sense, yeah.
SPEAKER_2: So you're not really allowing the audience to drive what you're writing.
SPEAKER_2: You're allowing the subject to be the key, the key focus, and then saying, okay, now how do I make that work for this person, that person?
SPEAKER_3: Exactly, yeah.
SPEAKER_1: Now, the Cosmos is in the great tradition of Carl Sagan.
SPEAKER_1: Obviously, he was the host of the original, and so awesome shoes to fill if I serve as host, serving as host.
SPEAKER_1: But Carl Sagan had a way with words and a way of, he had a bedside manner.
SPEAKER_1: And so, we all know Carl's influence on us, but what was your influence on Carl Sagan back then, if you were co-writer of the original Cosmos?
SPEAKER_3: Well, I came up with some of the ideas that got into the original Cosmos.
SPEAKER_3: I began, actually, as a researcher and discussing ideas.
SPEAKER_3: He liked them and said, why don't you be co-writer?
SPEAKER_3: So I did, and one of the things that I-
SPEAKER_1: Everybody gets to start somehow.
SPEAKER_1: Somebody says, hey, come on in, and right, that's good, that's good.
SPEAKER_3: So one thing I remember is that in the original Cosmos series, the 13th final episode, Karl wanted it to be about colonization of space.
SPEAKER_3: And I think I convinced him that it shouldn't be about that.
SPEAKER_3: This was during the heating up of the Cold War, and I thought it should be-
SPEAKER_1: 1980, 79, 80.
SPEAKER_3: Late 1970s.
SPEAKER_3: That it was more important to be talking about the survival of civilization without which there would not be any human future in space.
SPEAKER_3: And so I proposed that, and he agreed.
SPEAKER_3: And the final episode of the 13 was about the threat of nuclear war and the survival of civilization.
SPEAKER_1: And the title of it was?
SPEAKER_3: Was Who Speaks for Earth, which I suggested.
SPEAKER_1: Who Speaks for Earth.
SPEAKER_2: And who ultimately ended up speaking for us, Steve?
SPEAKER_2: Just a little curious.
SPEAKER_3: It's all of humanity.
SPEAKER_2: I got you.
SPEAKER_1: All right, and one of the great things Cosmos achieved then, and I think continues to achieve, is not thinking of the world in terms of countries, but thinking of the world in terms of humans as a species, as shepherds of civilization.
SPEAKER_3: Yes, and it's the vision of what Karl called the pale blue dot, looking at the Earth from a distance in space and realizing that this is our only home in space and we all share it and we have to preserve it.
SPEAKER_1: So I think it's great.
SPEAKER_1: And as co-writer of the original series, you must feel proud about that.
SPEAKER_1: I mean, that was a highly influential.
SPEAKER_3: I felt gratified.
SPEAKER_1: Yeah?
SPEAKER_3: Yeah, having some influence on it.
SPEAKER_2: Dude, you are way too humble.
SPEAKER_2: I'm just telling you right now.
SPEAKER_1: I felt gratified.
SPEAKER_2: I felt gratified.
SPEAKER_2: I've been like, you're damn right I was proud.
SPEAKER_2: Look at what I did.
SPEAKER_1: So did you collaborate with Carl Sagan thereafter?
SPEAKER_3: Not really scientifically.
SPEAKER_3: We were good friends and spent a lot of time sharing ideas, but only a couple of brief scientific articles that we wrote together.
SPEAKER_1: Oh, scientific articles.
SPEAKER_1: So it's scientific collaborators as well as?
SPEAKER_3: Yeah, but not much on the science side actually.
SPEAKER_1: Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_1: I'm just wondering, because we've been friends a while, but some places I've never gone with you conversationally.
SPEAKER_2: I have a question now.
SPEAKER_2: Who's a better friend, Neil or Carl Sagan?
SPEAKER_2: Ah!
SPEAKER_3: I love them both.
SPEAKER_1: So your co-author is Andrean.
SPEAKER_1: Yes.
SPEAKER_1: You were the sole co-author with Andrean in The New Cosmos.
SPEAKER_1: You were one third Z's co-author with her in whatever, there were three co-authors in the original.
SPEAKER_1: So she's not a scientist at all, but she feels the universe and she's clearly scientifically literate.
SPEAKER_1: So many will ask, and I even ask as well, how would you, what was the division of labor between the two of you?
SPEAKER_3: I think she brings to it the heart, why it matters, why you should feel, why this should touch you.
SPEAKER_3: And I bring to it, I think, the science.
SPEAKER_1: By the way, just so I can get this, the three of us started out as co-writers.
SPEAKER_1: Oh, really?
SPEAKER_1: Just for like a couple of days.
SPEAKER_1: And it was clear, I was there with them, it was clear they were a dyad, they were a riding dyad.
SPEAKER_1: And I was just like a third wheel on a perfectly functioning two-wheel bicycle.
SPEAKER_1: So I pulled away and they just took, the ship sailed.
SPEAKER_1: And so, so I interrupted Steve, go on.
SPEAKER_1: Yeah, so she brings the heart?
SPEAKER_3: Yes, and I think I bring the critical scientific view.
SPEAKER_3: And it was this sort of dynamic synergy between, you might call it left brain, right brain.
SPEAKER_3: And that's what honed the material and had both emotion and intellect in equal measure.
SPEAKER_1: Dynamic synergy.
SPEAKER_1: Oh man, man.
SPEAKER_1: And so what are the two in equal measure again?
SPEAKER_3: Emotion and intellect.
SPEAKER_2: I have one of those.
SPEAKER_1: I think that should be the center of every future, every house of future learning.
SPEAKER_2: Absolutely, emotion and intellect.
SPEAKER_1: When we come back on StarTalk Radio, more of my interview in studio with Steven Soter, co-writer of Cosmos.
SPEAKER_1: We're back on StarTalk Radio.
SPEAKER_1: Neil deGrasse Tyson here with Chuck Nice in studio, my co-host.
SPEAKER_2: Yes.
SPEAKER_1: And we've got here live my friend and colleague, Steve Soter, co-author of Cosmos, not only the original, but the current one.
SPEAKER_2: Impressive.
SPEAKER_1: And he's co-author with Andrean.
SPEAKER_1: Andrean also serves as executive producer, and I think she even gets a director credit for one or two of the episodes.
SPEAKER_1: We're gonna get her on another StarTalk.
SPEAKER_2: Oh, that's great.
SPEAKER_1: Yeah, stay tuned for that.
SPEAKER_2: That's great.
SPEAKER_1: I got Steve, my buddy, here right now.
SPEAKER_1: And so, Steve, you co-wrote the original Cosmos.
SPEAKER_1: Who first said billions and billions?
SPEAKER_1: Inquiring minds wanna know now.
SPEAKER_3: Johnny Carson.
SPEAKER_3: In a spoof on Carl.
SPEAKER_1: Oh, as he spoofed Carl?
SPEAKER_1: Yes.
SPEAKER_1: I saw some of those.
SPEAKER_1: He wore the wig and the-
SPEAKER_3: Yes, the turtleneck sweater.
SPEAKER_1: The turtleneck.
SPEAKER_2: Right.
SPEAKER_3: Billions and billions.
SPEAKER_1: Billions, okay.
SPEAKER_1: So Carl only just ever said billions.
SPEAKER_3: Carl said it doesn't make any sense to say billions and billions.
SPEAKER_3: It is very imprecise.
SPEAKER_1: That would make two billion, right?
SPEAKER_1: Billions and three billions.
SPEAKER_1: Right, so, okay.
SPEAKER_1: So the issue here is Carl said it so many times.
SPEAKER_3: He said billions with a very precise B.
SPEAKER_1: Billions.
SPEAKER_1: So he said it so often that to the listener, it was just billions and billions.
SPEAKER_2: Billions and billions.
SPEAKER_1: Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_2: Gobs and gobs.
SPEAKER_1: Gobs.
SPEAKER_1: That's the mathematically illiterate version of that.
SPEAKER_1: I saw some comic, forgive me for not remembering the illustrator.
SPEAKER_1: He said, Carl Sagan as a child.
SPEAKER_1: Look at all the stars.
SPEAKER_1: There must be hundreds of them.
SPEAKER_1: So Steve, a couple of things.
SPEAKER_1: What's different about the current Cosmos, of course, it's on commercial TV and has commercial breaks.
SPEAKER_1: What did you have to do, as you co-wrote the original, which appeared on PBS, no commercials.
SPEAKER_1: This had commercials.
SPEAKER_1: Was that frustrating?
SPEAKER_1: Was it fun?
SPEAKER_1: What was it?
SPEAKER_3: Well, we had to write it in blocks that could be separated for commercial breaks.
SPEAKER_1: Well, that can't be bad if it parcels people's attentions, man.
SPEAKER_1: I say it can't be bad, but was it hard or easy?
SPEAKER_3: No, it wasn't hard at all.
SPEAKER_3: But I think the impact of those commercials, though, is distracting, to say the least.
SPEAKER_3: A lot of people are complaining about them.
SPEAKER_1: Says the man who doesn't own a television.
SPEAKER_2: Right, exactly.
SPEAKER_1: Look, man, commercials make the world go round, right?
SPEAKER_1: Yeah, you can't really not eat the cake that you have.
SPEAKER_2: Right, yeah, well, you need the commercials.
SPEAKER_2: But, you know, that just gives you an opportunity to put out a DVD.
SPEAKER_1: Oh, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, there you go.
SPEAKER_3: Yep, looking forward to that.
SPEAKER_1: So what was the urge to put a historical vignette in every single episode?
SPEAKER_3: Well, these are great stories, and they're human stories.
SPEAKER_3: And they also show something of the process.
SPEAKER_1: What's your favorite among these stories?
SPEAKER_3: I think, well, I like a lot of them, but.
SPEAKER_1: Pick your children, yeah.
SPEAKER_3: Fraunhofer.
SPEAKER_1: Fraunhofer.
SPEAKER_3: The man who discovered the spectral lines.
SPEAKER_1: That was episode five, I think.
SPEAKER_3: Correct.
SPEAKER_3: Correct, and when we began researching his story, we discovered that he was an orphan who was saved by a prince.
SPEAKER_3: So there's already sort of a fairy tale feeling to this story.
SPEAKER_2: Yes.
SPEAKER_3: And then he goes on to become head of an optical research department in a monastery in Germany, which turns out to be the place where the music of Carmina Burana was discovered.
SPEAKER_3: And then we use that in a wonderful scene with an organ and making the, explaining how sound waves work and how they're analogs for light waves.
SPEAKER_1: Might I add, I played that organ.
SPEAKER_2: Did you really?
SPEAKER_1: In the show.
SPEAKER_3: Was that really you playing the organ?
SPEAKER_1: Yes, that was me.
SPEAKER_3: That was impressive.
SPEAKER_1: No, not the Carmina Burana part.
SPEAKER_3: Before that.
SPEAKER_1: Yeah, I had a little Bach minuet, which I think we later learned was not Bach, but it's a little classical minuet.
SPEAKER_1: It's all I remember from my piano lessons when I was 12 years old.
SPEAKER_2: And you got a chance to put that in the show?
SPEAKER_1: Yeah, I got a little bit in the show, so you loved the fairy tale aspect of it.
SPEAKER_3: Yes, and it was true.
SPEAKER_1: It has the added benefit of being true.
SPEAKER_1: Plus, it's the birth of astrophysics.
SPEAKER_3: Yes, the marriage of physics and astronomy.
SPEAKER_1: Is, yeah.
SPEAKER_3: Putting a prism in front of a telescope.
SPEAKER_2: And so I'm interested, like you just said, he was an orphan that was basically taken in by a prince.
SPEAKER_3: Yes.
SPEAKER_2: And that leads me to inquire is how important is money in science historically?
SPEAKER_3: Well, support, patronage is important.
SPEAKER_3: I mean, there's a lot of brilliant people out there, but they've never had the opportunity to express it because they didn't have support.
SPEAKER_3: They didn't have patronage.
SPEAKER_3: It was just an accident that Fraunhofer got that.
SPEAKER_1: You know, Chuck, we dodged a bullet back when Herschel discovered, he was the first to discover a planet ever, and he discovered planet Uranus.
SPEAKER_1: But his funder was King George, right?
SPEAKER_1: The same George of the American Revolution, King George III.
SPEAKER_1: And so for a while, he was calling that, he was called George's star, he was calling it.
SPEAKER_2: George's star.
SPEAKER_2: That's right.
SPEAKER_3: The planets then would have been Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, and George.
SPEAKER_1: And George, right.
SPEAKER_1: So yeah, so folks lose money funding this stuff, right?
SPEAKER_3: The colleagues did not go for it.
SPEAKER_1: Plus the Medici's, I think, helped out Galileo.
SPEAKER_3: The Medician stars is what Galileo named the moons of Jupiter when he discovered them.
SPEAKER_1: So everybody's naming it after the rich folk.
SPEAKER_2: After the rich people.
SPEAKER_3: Yeah, that didn't last either.
SPEAKER_1: It didn't last, yeah.
SPEAKER_1: Okay.
SPEAKER_1: Okay, so poor people made very few contributions, unless they were discovered by rich people, that's what you're saying.
SPEAKER_1: Often, yeah.
SPEAKER_1: So we don't know what discoveries lay unrevealed in the minds of poor people.
SPEAKER_2: But we know that they will not come out of a poor neighborhood, most likely.
SPEAKER_1: Unless someone discovers them.
SPEAKER_2: Like there'll never be a star called Bodega.
SPEAKER_2: B-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha.
SPEAKER_3: Fraunhofer was discovered because the house that he was a servant in collapsed on him and he was rescued, the prince and future king of Bavaria was there and took an interest in him, and wrote the brilliant line, how many others do we leave in the rubble?
SPEAKER_1: There you go.
SPEAKER_1: When we come back, more on the making of Cosmos, right here on StarTalk Radio.
SPEAKER_1: StarTalk Radio, Neil deGrasse Tyson here, your personal astrophysicist.
SPEAKER_1: Chuck Nice, with me.
SPEAKER_2: Yes, sir.
SPEAKER_1: Always good to have you, Chuck.
SPEAKER_2: Always a pleasure to be here.
SPEAKER_1: Yeah, we're talking about the writing of Cosmos.
SPEAKER_2: Yes.
SPEAKER_1: The original and the current one that I happen to host, I host that.
SPEAKER_2: I can't believe I'm actually sitting here with the show Cosmos.
SPEAKER_2: That's great.
SPEAKER_1: So we have in studio, my friend and colleague, Steve Soter, co-author of the original, co-author of the current one, and co-author with Anne Drean.
SPEAKER_1: We're gonna get her on another StarTalk.
SPEAKER_1: Steve, let me ask.
SPEAKER_1: In the original, the historical bits were, they had actors doing them.
SPEAKER_2: Right.
SPEAKER_1: And so you had to write some script that might have worked in its day, perhaps.
SPEAKER_1: In the current one, that's all been swapped out with animation.
SPEAKER_1: So was that a different, that might've been different for you, I suppose.
SPEAKER_3: Well, when we wrote it, we didn't know whether it would be animation or not.
SPEAKER_3: In fact, that was a decision that was made after the first drafts of all 13 episodes were completed.
SPEAKER_3: So we were writing, I think, with actors in mind.
SPEAKER_1: With actors in mind.
SPEAKER_1: And so, do you have any opinions about the animations?
SPEAKER_3: I think some of it works and some of it for me doesn't, but that's just a personal.
SPEAKER_1: So you have mixed feelings about it.
SPEAKER_1: Yeah, I had mixed feelings initially and then it just grew on me.
SPEAKER_1: And now I look forward to it every single time.
SPEAKER_1: I think part of my resistance was because I was accustomed to the actor with the British accent and the glued on mutton chops.
SPEAKER_1: And I was expecting that because that's all I was ever been given.
SPEAKER_1: And but when you animate it, you actually have a little bit more freedom.
SPEAKER_1: In the first episode with Bruno dreaming these floating in the universe, you're not gonna get your mutton chop glued on actor to float in the universe.
SPEAKER_1: Not on the budget, at least.
SPEAKER_2: And I have to say that having a young child that watches with me, the animation really does capture them.
SPEAKER_2: And to me, it's great to have.
SPEAKER_1: You keep using your kids as the excuse that you like animation, that you like cartoons.
SPEAKER_2: Isn't it funny that it works out like that?
SPEAKER_2: What's your excuse for cartoon network, Chuck?
SPEAKER_1: Yeah, Steve.
SPEAKER_3: In the first episode at the end of the cosmic calendar, which is the history of the universe from the Big Bang to the present, the last 14 seconds of that cosmic year represents all of human history.
SPEAKER_3: That was animated and that worked brilliantly.
SPEAKER_3: I thought that's where animation really soars.
SPEAKER_1: Because I narrate what went on in those last 14 seconds from the period where you had Jesus and Buddha and Muhammad and the invention of science.
SPEAKER_1: And it's a rapid read and it had great intensity, if I remember going through that.
SPEAKER_3: Yeah, that's perfect for animation.
SPEAKER_1: Okay, all right, that's cool.
SPEAKER_1: So, but in the current cosmos, there's an entire episode given unto evolution.
SPEAKER_1: And of course, evolution was treated in the original.
SPEAKER_3: A whole episode also.
SPEAKER_1: A whole episode.
SPEAKER_1: Could you compare and contrast the reactions that society has given to it?
SPEAKER_1: Because we live in America, land of the people who pick and choose their science.
SPEAKER_1: So, for what they wanna believe or not.
SPEAKER_1: So, what was the reactions from then and now?
SPEAKER_3: I don't remember any negative reactions from back then.
SPEAKER_3: But there's more of it now.
SPEAKER_2: Really?
SPEAKER_3: Yeah, I don't remember.
SPEAKER_3: There may have been, but definitely more now, yes.
SPEAKER_1: Okay, so these would be fundamentalist religious folk who are uncomfortable with what science says about the origins of humans.
SPEAKER_3: Yes.
SPEAKER_1: And so, okay, maybe it's because maybe there was a blowback, but it was in regional newspapers that you didn't have access to, and now you have access to everything.
SPEAKER_3: That could be.
SPEAKER_1: Could that be some of it?
SPEAKER_3: That could be, yeah.
SPEAKER_3: We're hearing it all now.
SPEAKER_1: Yeah, selection effect there, yeah.
SPEAKER_2: And is there quite the backlash from people who believe that evolution is whatever they believe it is, because I'm not sure what you could believe it is other than what it is, but do you have those people being angry, like literally, you know?
SPEAKER_3: Yes, there are people that are upset about it.
SPEAKER_2: Yeah, well, okay.
SPEAKER_2: And so how do you feel about evolution, Steve?
SPEAKER_1: What's your opinion about it?
SPEAKER_2: What's your opinion on it, seriously?
SPEAKER_2: I just want to get an official record.
SPEAKER_1: Get them on the record, yeah.
SPEAKER_1: Steve, do you have a monkey's uncle or what?
SPEAKER_3: It's the basis of biology.
SPEAKER_3: Very little in biology makes any sense without this foundational theory.
SPEAKER_3: It's like the atomic theory of matter or the germ theory of disease.
SPEAKER_3: I mean, it's absolutely fundamental to the subject and it's overwhelmingly demonstrated by the evidence.
SPEAKER_1: Yeah, but how much of it was you just trying to stick it to the fundamentalist?
SPEAKER_3: Oh, not at all.
SPEAKER_3: We just wanted to make the case, this is the evidence.
SPEAKER_3: You don't have to accept it, but there it is.
SPEAKER_1: Okay, well, that's fair enough.
SPEAKER_2: And so therefore, thank you for your permission.
SPEAKER_2: I don't accept it.
SPEAKER_3: That's fine, that's fine.
SPEAKER_1: Steve, you just gave him permission to not accept it.
SPEAKER_1: Now I gotta deal with him.
SPEAKER_1: After you leave, I'm gonna have to deal with him.
SPEAKER_3: You don't have to accept it, it's just that also, if you don't accept it, that's not the version that should be taught in the public schools.
SPEAKER_3: That's why it's a problem today.
SPEAKER_1: Teach it somewhere else is the point.
SPEAKER_1: Right, right, because if they weren't trying to knock down the doors of the public school, there'd be no issue here.
SPEAKER_3: No, people can believe what they want.
SPEAKER_1: In a free country, that's kind of what the point is, right?
SPEAKER_2: Yes, and that kind of is the problem, though.
SPEAKER_2: People can believe what they want.
SPEAKER_1: No, no, the problem is not that they can believe what they want, is that they believe what they want and they're in charge, see?
SPEAKER_2: Boom, I stand corrected.
SPEAKER_2: Right, right.
SPEAKER_1: When we come back, more of my interview with my friend and colleague, Steven Soter, the co-writer of Cosmos.
SPEAKER_1: Welcome back, StarTalk Radio, Neil deGrasse Tyson here, Chuck Nice there.
SPEAKER_2: That's correct.
SPEAKER_1: If we're all here, we must not be all there.
SPEAKER_1: Just in case you hadn't heard that one before, Steven Soter, co-writer of Cosmos, thanks for coming into StarTalk for this.
SPEAKER_1: The original Cosmos was 34 years ago, and there's been some scientific advances since then.
SPEAKER_1: As co-writer, along with Andrean, what is your mix of new science you know you had to put in, new science that you're a little scared to put in, because it might get old, or might be shown to be wrong, and just how do you pick and choose?
SPEAKER_3: I think the original series, we didn't go to the cutting edge of science for the most part, because we knew that some of that would turn out to be wrong, and that would date the series.
SPEAKER_3: In the present Cosmos, that's the same policy.
SPEAKER_3: For the most part, we don't-
SPEAKER_1: Chuck, did you know Cosmos had a policy?
SPEAKER_1: Go on.
SPEAKER_3: Well, it's risky to go to the very cutting edge of science, because some of those things are going to be shown to be wrong, and that will date the series, so for the most part, we pull back from that and tell the more well-established and important elements of science.
SPEAKER_1: Okay, so of the new things that you could still get to pull back on, what is new, undreamt of in 1980 that you felt important enough to put in in the mix of storytelling?
SPEAKER_2: Was Pluto alive in 1980, Steve?
SPEAKER_3: The non-planetary status of Pluto is touched on.
SPEAKER_3: That's not that important.
SPEAKER_3: The discovery of the acceleration of the expansion of the universe, that's a big one, and that we did touch on.
SPEAKER_1: We got that in there, yeah.
SPEAKER_1: And anything else just off the top of your head?
SPEAKER_3: I think the importance of dark matter also, that that's become much more well-established, and there's a stronger observational basis for it now than there was 35 years ago.
SPEAKER_1: Uh-huh, uh-huh, and the fact that there's 1,000 planets discovered.
SPEAKER_3: Oh, yes, that's a big one.
SPEAKER_3: Yes, and this was something that Carl would-
SPEAKER_1: What do you mean, oh, yes, that's a big one.
SPEAKER_1: How could you forget that?
SPEAKER_3: Carl would have been thrilled, of course, because he intuited this-
SPEAKER_1: Because he's from one of those planets.
SPEAKER_3: Well, he knew that this was going to be the case, and now we have the observational proof.
SPEAKER_3: Planets are plentiful.
SPEAKER_3: They outnumber the stars.
SPEAKER_2: That's right.
SPEAKER_1: And that's, in fact, an exact line from the script.
SPEAKER_3: They outnumber the stars, yeah.
SPEAKER_3: Making worlds is what galaxies do.
SPEAKER_1: Another exact line.
SPEAKER_2: Wow, that sounds like something out of a rap video.
SPEAKER_2: Like a cosmic rap song.
SPEAKER_2: Making worlds is what galaxies do.
SPEAKER_2: That would be cool.
SPEAKER_1: The cosmos rap.
SPEAKER_1: Yeah.
SPEAKER_1: And so I got to ask you, what was your favorite thing to write for it?
SPEAKER_3: Oh, that's a tough one.
SPEAKER_3: I mean, there's many, but there's maybe one line.
SPEAKER_1: What line?
SPEAKER_3: It's hard to know how much of a line is described to one of the two writers because we collaborated on a lot of them, but it was something like, we'll need imagination to make this journey, but imagination alone is not enough.
SPEAKER_3: It's not enough because the reality of nature far exceeds anything that we can imagine.
SPEAKER_1: So that's a paraphrase of JBS.
SPEAKER_1: Haldane.
SPEAKER_3: Yes.
SPEAKER_1: Back when the word queer meant odd.
SPEAKER_1: The universe is not only queerer than we have imagined it, maybe queerer than we can imagine.
SPEAKER_2: Yes.
SPEAKER_1: Yeah.
SPEAKER_2: Right on.
SPEAKER_2: I like that.
SPEAKER_1: Okay, that's good.
SPEAKER_1: And what was the toughest, just the angriest thing you had to write?
SPEAKER_1: You had to just get through it and it was uncomfortable and you didn't like it, but you knew you had to do it.
SPEAKER_3: I don't remember anything like that, actually.
SPEAKER_3: I mean, it was all hard work, but-
SPEAKER_1: He's been fully brainwashed.
SPEAKER_3: Yes, he has.
SPEAKER_1: The brainwashing program has worked.
SPEAKER_2: He drank the Kool-Aid.
SPEAKER_2: He's just, no, there was nothing hard about it.
SPEAKER_3: No, it was hard.
SPEAKER_3: It was hard.
SPEAKER_3: But it wasn't-
SPEAKER_2: Nothing unpleasant.
SPEAKER_3: It wasn't unpleasant, no.
SPEAKER_3: No.
SPEAKER_1: All right, well, that's cool.
SPEAKER_1: So Steve, I count you among the ranks of educators in the world, and you got to strike a balance between preaching, maybe, and educating, and just having a conversation, and with a mouthpiece such as Cosmos on the platform that it arrived on, coming out of me, you put all this together, and I don't wanna preach to anybody.
SPEAKER_1: I wanna just bring people along on a conversation.
SPEAKER_1: So what's going on in your head as you split this out?
SPEAKER_3: I want to avoid preaching.
SPEAKER_3: I want to just present the evidence, because preaching is really, in some sense, is disrespectful of the audience.
SPEAKER_2: See, that's the problem with science right there, okay?
SPEAKER_2: You guys are too worried about presenting facts and evidence and not beating people over the head, like Bill O'Reilly.
SPEAKER_1: Apparently it works.
SPEAKER_1: There are a whole lot of people doing a lot of preaching, and it goes over very well.
SPEAKER_3: But the strength of the evidence is so compelling.
SPEAKER_3: If you can...
SPEAKER_1: You wanna let the evidence do the preaching.
SPEAKER_3: Yes.
SPEAKER_1: That's another line in your rap song you're composing right now.
SPEAKER_2: Mm-hmm, making worlds is what galaxies do.
SPEAKER_2: We present the evidence just for you.
SPEAKER_3: You got it.
SPEAKER_2: Yeah, I got you.
SPEAKER_1: Have you seen the meme with the Incredible Hulk, except he's the Credible Hulk?
SPEAKER_1: And it says, you won't like me when I'm angry.
SPEAKER_1: I get angry if you do not back up your statements with evidence.
SPEAKER_2: That's pretty funny.
SPEAKER_1: The Credible Hulk.
SPEAKER_2: The Credible Hulk.
SPEAKER_1: So Steve, you got any projects coming up you're thinking about?
SPEAKER_2: Sure.
SPEAKER_1: I know we talk a lot about climate change.
SPEAKER_1: You got the-
SPEAKER_3: Oh, I'm teaching a course on climate change now and I've been thinking of-
SPEAKER_1: At New York University.
SPEAKER_3: That's right.
SPEAKER_1: Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_2: I don't believe in climate change, Steve.
SPEAKER_1: I'm just letting you know that.
SPEAKER_1: Steve, you gave him the option earlier.
SPEAKER_2: You gave me the option earlier?
SPEAKER_2: I'm opting out of climate change as well.
SPEAKER_1: I gotta deal with him.
SPEAKER_2: You know why?
SPEAKER_2: I just bought Exxon stock.
SPEAKER_1: Well, so Steve, keep up the good work out there.
SPEAKER_1: It's always great to have you there.
SPEAKER_1: And great to collaborate with you over all these years.
SPEAKER_1: And we'll find some more stuff to work on and bring it to the public.
SPEAKER_1: You've been listening to StarTalk Radio.
SPEAKER_1: I thank Chuck Nice for being with me here.
SPEAKER_2: It's my pleasure.
SPEAKER_1: And people can tweet at you.
SPEAKER_1: Where's Chuck B at?
SPEAKER_2: Chuck B at, at Chuck Nice Comics.
SPEAKER_2: At Chuck Nice Comics, fine.
SPEAKER_1: I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson for StarTalk Radio, bidding you, as always, to keep looking up.